Talk:Red Queen/Archive 1

360
if someone has a chance, Template:Button does actually have the symbols for the xbox360's controller too. would it be possible to add these on the page too?


 * I have the 360 version, so if I can get a chance to play it and figure out which buttons are which, I can add those. Basically, it would be an extra column (Change Command to Command (PS3) and Command (XBOX360) or PS and XBOX.128.211.243.43 07:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Normal Order of the Sword blades
In the Mission 01 cutscene "Guns and Swords," Nero revs up a regular Order sword. Wouldn't this indicate that Credo's sword can do that too? Or is his sword different in design? I haven't been able to see look at it closely in comparison to the ones the other troops carry. Dj ultima 19:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Alto's can do it too. I think the difference is that only the Red Queen can actually ignite. Not even Mr. Lister's  Koromon survived intact.  23:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If you go back and play mission 1 later on, after mission 2, the order sword Nero uses has identical abilities to his Red Queen, icluding the ignition, I belive. The only difference seems to be the color scheme and shape of the swords; Nero and Credo both have their own unique shape, size, and colored sword, but the lower "grunts" all use identical ones.
 * If you go back and play it after Mission 1, you're able to use the Red Queen (after the tutorial sequence). Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  03:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

This is arguable. Sword which is used in first mission looks exactly like Red Queen, but it cannot be!.. It must be still repairing then (DMC 4 Prologue:"The ministry of technology has determined that Nero's sword, the Red Queen, took some damage and is currently being repaired."). Also Nero hadn't sword in Prologue cutscene, and it is unlikely that it was in Opera house unstead of being with him. And first cutscene of next mission? Then Kyrie brings Red Queen in a container? It makes no sense if the sword was already there. I know that Weapon file says that Red Queen is unique blade but I must assume that sword in first mission wasn't the Queen. Flia 19:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ...as I said, the first time you play through it's a generic sword, if you go through the mission again, it's your currently-upgraded Red Queen - just like every other DMC game, when you can beat Nevan with her own guitar. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  04:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Never managed to beat her with guitar really... :) Anyway, I've started a brand new game just to check it out. And what I found... in a new game you cannot rev up sword even after tutorial sequence, it's just a grey Order's sword (although at the beginning of next mission you can do that, even before tutorial says so). But after I finished mission two I was able to use Red Queen in first one, so you was right - it's "Nevan vs Nevan" situation. Eeh. Why I didn't even think of that? Flia 17:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Red Queen Collectors Replica Sword
I'm new to wiki's and curious if it would be kosher to add articles about products/collectible items available in the "real world". In the interest of full disclosure, I am employed by a manufacturer of said collectible items. The goal however is to dispel disinformation and confusion regarding the Capcom licenced product from the knockoff product, and to deliver accurate product information. I appreciate all input.
 * As long as the product is endorsed by Capcom (so that we're not seen as encouraging copyright theft), I can't see any problem with it. Just make sure you provide sources or links. Glorious  CHAOS!  15:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Order Swords and Revving
There is significant debate about whether or not order swords have the ability to be revved or not. Well, if anyone has actually payed attention whist playing the game, they will notice that this is the most notable features of such swords. The Red Queen is customised to be revved 3 times, as it is described. Rationalise this all you want, but the main implication here is that the customisation allows it to be revved 3 times instead of the usual once (as opposed to the customisation being revving all together)

Everyone who uses Order weapons except for Credo charges them. The Bianco Angelos are frequently seen revving their lances, surrounding them in blue flames, after which they lunge forward. The Alto Angelos are also seen revving their swords, which seems to have a similar effect to the Red Queen (increasing power and ejecting flames). As for the basic order swords, Nero is seen revving one in an early cutscene in his fight with Dante (and it definately was a standard order sword, not the Red Queen)

The cop-out argument that the order swords can be revved, but to no effect, is completely rediculous. The idea that the trottle handles on each sword has no function is highly unlikely. Every opponent who has an order weapon is seen revving it to increase their attack power or speed, wreathing it in flames in the process. While the description ingame leads players to believe that the Red Queens custom feature is Exceed itself, it is a rather short and vague description. Nowhere in the game is it explicitely stated that no other order swords have Exceed, and all other evident supports that they do.

There is far more evidence to support the idea that revving to increase attack power is a standard feature of order weapons (the Red Queen just expands upon this technology). To begin with, the throttle handles wouldn't be there if they didn't have a function
 * There's this funny thing called the actual game library and creator descriptions, which clearly state that only the Red Queen implements a revving function, and clearly calls it Exceed. The normal Order blades may have the ability to clutch their handles, but as shown in Mission 01, this does nothing - play it again, on normal difficulty, and you will see that even though Nero inherently possesses the Exceed ability, you cannot use it with the Order Sword used in the first mission. (However, this is not apparent on higher difficulty playthroughs of the Dante boss battle portion of the mission, in which Nero is clearly using the red-colored Red Queen, not the goldish order blade.)
 * Example: "But its most unique feature resides in the handle, boasting motorcycle-like gear shift which, when pulled, releases a flammable liquid spray across the opponent. This blade is as beautiful as its deadly."
 * However, Agnus did create the normal Order swords, and it is never said that Nero was the one who customized it. Thus, it is likely that Agnus had a hand in designing the Exceed system, so it does make sense that the Angelos' weapons are able to perform functions similar to Exceed. The article explains this. However,
 * By the way, your argument about this being a "cop-out argument" is full of logical fallacies, especially in the context of this being (1) a video game, and (2) a Devil May Cry video game. Glorious  CHAOS!  06:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Cite these creator descriptions, I'd like to read them. Also, the ingame library does not support your argument.

And this: "But its most unique feature resides in the handle, boasting motorcycle-like gear shift which, when pulled, releases a flammable liquid spray across the opponent. This blade is as beautiful as its deadly." whether or not considered canon, contradicts evens within the actual game. Even if we assume that Exeed is unique to the Red Queen, the motorbike handle certainly isn't, so this single flimsy quote isn't entirely credible. It also contradicts the ingame description of the Red Queen saying that it sprays propellant over the enemy, where the ingame description states that it sprays it over the blade. This is more than likely a statemt made before the game was even released, intented to show players a new weapon in DMC4. "...its most unique feature resides in the handle, boasting motorcycle-like gear shift..." Yes, the motorbike handle is unique to the Red Queen, assuming that we are talking about weapons the player can actually use. It is the only weapon that features Exceed for the player, but this doesn't necessarily apply to cutscenes and NPCs.
 * It was in the official art book, released with the game and written by the design staff, especially Kobayashi. It's completely canon, and direct evidence of what the creator's meant by the blade's uniqueness. Furthermore, the Exceed tutorial note does not appear until Nero obtains the Red Queen, and specifically mentions that weapon alone. And, judging by the gameplay use of Exceed, which works better if you pull the trigger at the moment you strike the enemy, as well as lighting the enemy on fire, it makes sense that the enemy is being sprayed with the propellant.
 * As for your edit to the trivia bit: No, the revving has absolutely no effect on the blade's strength and speed, as you can see in the first Dante battle. It doesn't even have a visual effect in that scene. And for the Angelos - those are clearly not flames, as they cover the entire body, are the same color as the stuff released when the Angelos are slain, and don't cause Nero/Dante burn damage like Basilisk's and other fiery enemies can. It's demonic aura. Glorious  CHAOS!  08:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The Red Queen, and it's Exceed system, are clearly stated in several places to be unique among the elements of the DMC4 universe. The Red Queen is also a variant of the normal Order sword, so similarity in appearance is to be expected. However, what you are claiming is that despite official claims from the game designers and the clear implication of the library-file, as well as the actual gameplay mechanics of the nameless Order sword, it must still operate virtually the same as the Order sword. This argument relies on the absence of evidence, and the denial of the evidence we have. Glorious  CHAOS!  09:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Then please explain the audible revs heard when the angelos are revving their lances (also heard when Nero attacks them with the Devil Bringer). Also, the glow rev sound heard when Nero revs the order sword in the early cutscene. My argument does not rely on the absence of evidence, the the truth. Within the game, the effect of revving an order sword was never defined ingame, although you insist that it has absolutely no effect with no explicit statement to verify this. Whether or not they are capable of exceed, they are equipped with the throttle handle and make an audble rev sound. This effect is never define, but at the same time is never denied. The angelo lances posses the same mechanical device and produce the same sound when revved, and it makes sense that they do not set their target alite, as neither does the red queen, it simply causes more damage.

My edit doesn't claim that the order swords are capable of exceed, it says that the effect of revving is never stated, which is the truth.
 * You were claiming that the Order swords have a first level Exceed system. No, your edit doesn't still claim that, but that's not what I was responding to.
 * If you watch the Bianco Angelo's Rev, the aura bursts out of their wings as well, not just the lance; the same with the Alto Angelo's. I'm not disputing that the Angelo's have a function similar to Exceed. However, as I have stated multiple times, while the normal Order swords do make a sound and can be "revved", this does not do anything. You can prove this by replaying the first mission on a new file - it doesn't even let you Exceed with that sword. The cutscene itself displays absolutely no visual differences to the sword when revved. Finally, the multitude of sites that actually cover the gameplay mechanics in intricate detail make absolutely no mention of any effects of the order sword being revved.
 * Yes, that argument does rely on the absence of evidence, and worst of all it contradicts the explicit, written sources. You can continue to assert that your view is "the truth", but this wiki's policies place the actual written sources as the highest priority. Glorious  CHAOS!  15:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I said, as you just did, that the effect of revving the order sword is never mentioned. Therefore, according to your policies, this should be stated (rather than saying their is absolutely no effect). If there is absolutely no mention of the effect, why does the article say otherwise?

I am not claiming that the order swords had exceed with no possibility of dispute, however, I was leaving the possibility open. Considering the effect is not defined, that is what I included in the edit.

I am perfectly willing to remain civil about this, however I would appreciate a link to some actual proof that explicitly states that revving order swords has absolutely no effect. Replaying the first mission is meaningless, considering your not all of your abilities are accessible at this point. Nero can't even perform a snatch until the game lets you, but this doesn't suggest that snatch came along later.

Also the references at the bottom of the article need to be updated to reflect this definate statement, because the only 2 references are not enough to verify this stament. Also, the one linked to capcom unit only links to the site, not the specific webpage. There are not enough references to support your statement.


 * (Whoa, this is getting serious. I want to participate too.)


 * Wait, and what is Evil Legacy for? It gives Snatching ability to Nero, doesn't it?


 * About new file - Red Queen usable in the first mission is a "Nevan vs Nevan" situation. (See above, especially end of that discussion)


 * Actually I cannot clearly understand what are you two are arguing for. Whole discussion would be of some sense to me if you were debating if Exceed were unique to Red Queen, but it seems that you're not. State your opinions again please.


 * P.S.: Also, name yourself please. I'm not talking about creating an account here, just about name by which I could refer to you. Or you prefer 121? :) Flia 08:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The debate was originally about whether or not exceed was unique to the Red Queen, but now its broader. My argument is that, whether or not other order weapons have exceed, it has not been explicitely stated either way in any referenced material, and therefore cannot be stated so in the article. Bianco and Alto Angelos are clearly seen using an ability that resembles exceed, and whether this is magical or mechanical, neither can be stated until some evidence is offered. So I have edited the article to reflect this ambiguity


 * I can't see anything bad in the last statement. Waiting for Kryten then. Flia 11:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The description from the art book very clearly describes the Exceed system as unique to Nero's Red Queen. As for the trivia section: the propellant causes the Red Queen to glow red. As the Order sword does not glow red or have any visual difference, the propellant isn't involved. When the trigger is pressed, the attack does not become stronger or faster - this is obvious from gameplay, but you can check sites which cover the game mechanics in-depth if you really want to. However, as the Exceed system is credited specifically as making the blade stronger and faster, evidence would need to be provided that it's possible for the blade to become faster or stronger from the handle alone.
 * The blue and gold whirls which appear around the Angelos when their "rev" is used are the same as those which emerge from the defeated Angelo, which are called souls or aura. As such, there is little if any reason to suggest they could be due to flammable propellant.
 * Finally, stop messing with the table's coding. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For third-party sources, considered acceptable for wikipedia:
 * : Nero has access to both projectile and melee strikes thanks to his unique weaponry, the Blue Rose and the Red Queen. The Blue Rose is a double-barreled pistol that allows Nero to fire powerful blasts at distant opponents. While slow to fire, the power of these blasts is quite strong, and can eventually be charged-up to provide even more punch. His more devastating attacks come in the form of the Red Queen, a motorcycle throttled, gas-infused sword that can be revved-up to add additional strength behind each combo or blow inflicted on an enemy. This boosting of the sword is known as the Exceed system, and allows Nero to charge the sword up three times, turning the blade red hot with energy and lashing out with fiery blows.
 * : TVG: We've heard about the 'Exceed System', which allows gamers to charge up their sword for more damaging attacks. How will that work exactly? As I mentioned previously Nero charges up his sword using a throttle system, just as if it was a motorbike. In practice, this involves the player pressing L1 or LB, for PS3 and 360 respectively, in order to fill up a total of three sections of the Exceed Gauge. Getting the timing just right will really help as you can fill all three sections with just one press if you get it spot on. This also allows players to charge the exceed system mid-combo for some awesome attacks. Finally the power of specific attacks such as Streak can be greatly increased if the Exceed Gauge is full when they are unleashed.


 * Looking through the artbook, the Order swords, which are named "Caliburn" (カリバーン) (for ordinary knights, 一般剣士用) and "Durandal" (デュランダル) (for officers, 士官用), have a description, though it's difficult to read. While the Durandal/Caliburn description does not specifically mention a lack of revving capability, the Red Queen's description does, all of the diagrams describing the Exceed system are labeled "Red Queen", and the hilt area of the Durandal and Calibrun is called out only to show that the peg is where it is buttoned in with the sheath.

From the Japanese wikipedia description: "ネロが使用する大剣. 通常の細身の刀身を分厚い曲刀に換装してある. 柄の近くにバイクのアクセルのようなバーが付いており、これを捻る事で噴射剤が作動する. 無理な強化をした推進剤噴射機構は、時折巨大な火炎を噴き、これが銘の由来となった. ちなみに一般剣士用のものはカリバーン、クレドなどが持つ士官用の剣はデュランダルという銘である. ネロの改造は明らかにやり過ぎであり、本来剣撃に更なる力を加える為の推進剤が逆に剣の制御を困難なものにさせてしまっている. そのため、並の騎士にはこの剣を扱うことが出来ない. 人並外れた腕力と天性の勘を持つネロだからこそ、自在に振り回すことができる. スタイルを使えない分、汎用技がとても多い."

This claims that he has attached an actual motorcycle handle to it, and specifically mentions that the propellant system he added to the normal "Durandal" sword, in order to increase the blade's power, made it too heavy for others to wield, and only Nero with his super-human strength can handle it.


 * Finally, the manual mentions that Nero's sword was sent to Agnus's science division for repair after the incident that got Nero's arm bandaged, so it's entirely possible that Agnus got the idea for the Angelo's revving function after designing the normal swords. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The referencing in the article is still inadequate. There is no specific mention here about the truth behind the angelo's spears, only speculation. My edit to the article was meant to reflect this speculation, considering no viable sources were provided to support this argument that is apparently so obviously true.

Speculation regarding the angelo lances is not enough to rule a statement irrefutable. There is evidence to support the opposite as well, considering that when Nero attacks an angelo with the Devil Bringer, he impales them with their own lance, revving it (audibly) several times, and propells them in the other direction.

I am perfectly willing to agree to the possibilities you are suggesting. However, considering the lack of referencing and ingame evidence to the contrary, the article should not be filled with arguable facts from third-party sources. My argument only reflects the most obvious evidence, I don't personally care about the nature of the weapons one way or the other. Although it seems your argument is fueled by the desire to believe one side.

If you actually read my edits, they reflect the debate and ambiguity of this topic, however your consistently support one side of the argument without any cited references to support it. Finally, I didn't touch you table code, I never touched your table code. If wiki is bugged in a way that causes table codes to become scrambled, thats not my fault. Besides, each time I looked the tables where unchanged.


 * The Angelo's rev. This is obvious from gameplay.
 * The revving produces whirls from their entire body, not just the lance. This is also obvious from gameplay.
 * The whirls are the same in form and color as that identified as souls or aura from when the Angelo is slain, per the Angelo's library entries. This is also obvious from gameplay, unless I'm being colorblind - if it is distinctly different, please provide a video in which they rev and are slain, to compare.
 * Souls and demonic aura are plainly not mechanical, and are magical. As such, while it is possible that the revving function is primarily mechanical, the evidence points to it being magical. This is exactly what my version of the trivia note says. The fact that Nero can use the rev function while holding the lance with the Devil Bringer is in fact compatible with this possibility.

All your version does is remove the second and third notes from the page in order to insinuate that it's a 50-50 possibility. However, as these facts are plainly observable in gameplay, there is no reason to require explicit language from the library files.

Finally - if someone keeps telling you that you're making a mess of something check what you're doing, in this case by checking the version differences in the page history. Just because you don't remember doing it doesn't mean you didn't do it. I believe that you're editing using the MS-Word style Rich Text Editor, rather than the HTML-style wiki editor. Don't. It is incredibly annoying when I repeatedly ask you to stop messing up the page and you just ignore me. Glorious  CHAOS!  09:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Visual evidence





The flames are quite clearly comming from the lance



The lance is clearly at the centre of the glow



The mist that comes from the defeated angelo's body is much darker, resembling smoke

The only thing about the angelo's rev thats obvious from gameplay is that it sounds motorised and ejects flame from the rear of the lance

The lance produces a super-sonic cone shape around their bodies, possibly creating the idea that they rev their bodies. Their wings leave vague trails in the air, but this occurs several times whether they rev or not

Whether or not this exceed argument has a clear answer, the article should not be edited to reflect a definite statement when no explicity evidence can be shown.

And your statement about not requiring explicit language from the library files is more or less self defeating. Unless it can be provent with viable evidence, it is purely speculation. Speculation should not be written as though it were fact


 * Aren't you bored of this yet?


 * I am.


 * I think this topic should be closed. The information is contradicted at the source (in one hand - library files and artbook, in other - actual gameplay elements of Alto and Bianco Angelos, and both sources are equally canon), so just leave it in trivia section as such. As I understand, this is what actually 121 says, isn't it?


 * And about tables - I don't see any actual (at least visual) differences in the article, although wiki recognizes this as one. Kryten, maybe you'll just leave it as it is modified by RTE? (I too believe what that is because of it)


 * P.S.: I don't like third party sources too, even if they're English or Japanese wikipedia. You know, it is user-edited. Flia 11:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)